One other thought dont ever modify the trigger on your self-defensive gun if you ever have to use it in those situations and lawyer finds that out he will own everything you have. This is real life experience not article information research. If you are in the sixties o more 9 mm is the best choice. Even later to the conversation but figured Id throw my ring in the hate. I was a PA-C in the military. Practice drawing the weapon, aiming it, and firing. This was not a good CC gun so I traded it for a S&W 39-2 9mm. The round severed Platts brachial artery, passing through the arm into his chest and almost entirely through his right lung. Im not going to begin to discuss the variables between the two calibers and cartridge designs but statistics released from DOJ shows that larger cartridges are more effective at stopping Humans per round on target. I am just way more comfortable with the way it shoots. The human body experiences four main types of acid-based disorders: metabolic acidosis, metabolic alkalosis, respiratory acidosis, and respiratory alkalosis. WebA 9mm -40 - 357sig -45 ACP all do about 11-13" penetration into the human body no temporary wound cavity, and the diamiter differnce is from 9mm(.355(.357 caliber)) to 11.5mm(.45 caliber). .380 9mm .40 10mm or .45 one well placed shot and dead nothing really better about each round besides power and penetration they all kill in skilled hands and do there job in certain situations there is no better round than the one you train with period! A good hit from either will wreck an adversarys day . The lack of penetration, compared to a 9mm ,from a 45 can be eliminated by using a long barrel , 5+, and +P rounds. One week later the detective in charge advised me that papa lived, walked out of the hospital and back to Mexico. You would think he would know a thing or two about firearms and ballistics with a title like that. For example, a shot through the side of the body must penetrate between 10 to 12 inches to hit the heart. With practice almost anything is possible. As I have read your comments and, also read many debates including what science says. As a civilian with a concealed carry permit, my rule is that I will carry the heaviest, store bought self defense round that I can buy. Projectiles do not accelerate once they leave the muzzle. Rounds were literally ranked on the basis of temporary cavity volume, with penetration and permanent cavity ignored. Take a look at the FBI stats on their testing of various pistol ammunition as well as other reputable studies. There are far too many different considerations and circumstances between self-defense necessities and military/LE necessities to list in a comment section; but theyre important distinctions. I can say with great certainty that many animals dont just simply fall over and die. If Agent Doves bullet had entered Platts heart, he would have perished quickly, before launching his life-ending assault. Not so with rifles with muzzle velocities of 2800-4000 fps, depending on the caliber. No regrets. Fragmentation cannot reliably be counted upon with handgun wounds because of the comparatively low velocity of handgun rounds. Keep in mind that fragmentation does sometimes occur, however, it cannot be relied upon. The former is by far the leading reason for handgun ownership. Ive shot both calibers at humans as a soldier and as a LEO and 9mm just doesnt get the same results as 45 in the same number of shots. I settled on a 9-round single-stack .40 S&W that has almost identical dimensions to the same pistol in 9mm. The .45 is a bit harder to conceal so people may freak out. ), and I can buy twice the ammo and get twice the practice. F=MA always applies to the known laws of physics. I am not aware of any hollowpoints that were designed to expand on the way to the target. Second Media Inc., 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. quick defense trigger and has an extended 17rnd clip. In other words slower bullet JHP more energy transferred more effective. You have renewed my faith in man. The Glock 17/19 could be a possibility as well, though, as there are plenty of them already in the inventory, and the P320 also seemed destined for the FBI (which had similar requirements), but they suddenly settled on the Glock at the last minute. I am older now, living in the city. I have also recorded a few single-shot kills from a .45ACP, one from as far While 9mm is not as good at killing men as the 45 Auto, it is smaller, lighter, cheaper, easier to handle, and allows more opportunities to miss the target.. Projectiles incapacitate by damaging or destroying the central nervous system, or by causing significant and potentially lethal blood loss. In a statement, the FBI said he used a modified an SKS , the predecessor to the AK-47 which shoots the same bullets. The reason they went over to the +P was to punch through windshields. Black Talon and Todays Best Self-Defense Ammo We traded all the 9s some years ago for the 40 which give knockdown power plus multiple rounds. The better the bullet and the shot placement of an officer, the more likely the officer will go home after a shooting. But to suggest they made the change due to the reasons quoted aboveparticularly because the 9mm supposedly has greater penetration due to less air resistanceis complete hogwash! Handgun cartridges just dont do that. He carries a nine personally currently because of the round capacity but in combat 45. I guess I might be a little old school, 1911 45, M1 Grand in 3006, or M1A in a 308, these are older, but they have not made better guns or calibersI still have a glock and some 9s, but only because If I do have to use it I dont want to lose my 1911, and yes I have a AR15, but still like the A1 more. We need to dial back our expectations of how effective a pistol is, regardless of caliber, barring brain or spine shots. In other words, negative acceleration and a non-linear path are both occurring. It's estimated that chronic kidney disease affects about one in seven American adults. Fair testing without the bias of budgets and the need to carry what every one else is carrying would be quite refreshing and lend more to the safety of the officer or soldier who may be fighting his or her life. Either work for me, and if I had to choose only one it would be 9mm just for the capacity. Note that buying a handgun for personal protection is not an abstract desire. In reaching this conclusion, the FBI appeared to give too little weight to the tissue-crushing ability of the larger projectiles (.40 S& W; .45 Auto). Give me a break!! (As my Sr. DI liked to say Two in the chest, and one in the head, then youre pretty damned sure that the bastard is dead.. The bullet had disintegrated his spleen and torn his aorta. My neighbor saw that the guy was afraid of the thing and couldnt get back on target after the 1st shot due to the recoil and his flinching with every shot. Im 73 yoa. Its round is designed to not only kill the attacker but also to stop him in his tracks. What I have seen over the years on this debate, is that the majority, not all, prefer the 9mm due to its minimal recoil, magazine capacity and concealability. I can load my rounds as hot as I want, and often do. ACP Good article and very good to great comments. Why is .45 acp so much better than 9mm? The FBI subsequently transitioned from revolvers to semi auto .40 caliber handguns with S&W .40 caliber bullets (a slightly shorter version of the 10mm round). While the classic .45 ACP round is large, its also relatively slow, with an average velocity of 850-900 FPS for most types of ammo. Immediately retired the Glock 17 and requalified with a Glock 21 Gen 4 after a long break. I imagine humans are the same. How higher speed, greater mass, and more surface area increase the damage that rounds can do to human bodies. While this research is geared toward law enforcement officers, it cuts through the confusion, and provides common-sense, scientifically supported principles by which the effectiveness of self-defense ammunition may more generally be measured. The Simple Physics That Makes Some Bullets Deadlier Than and departments. He kicked in the door and she was able to disarm him ( He was lying next to the bathroom door. On the other hand, a .22 that you can carry easily and put into operation quickly and shoot accurately is probably not a good defense gun/round because to do enough damage requires brain-shot accuracy with each shot. I like how the author notes that the accuracy analogy is nonsense, thats true. Owned a model 29 .357 .22lr is an assassins round yet we all have fun plinking around with it. Really late to the discussion. A true warriors gun. Trauma surgeons, the guys actually opening up peoples chests and trying to put them back together, say otherwise. If the first bullet ricochets off the windshield, the succeeding rounds will make it through. Its actually much more simple than most would like to think. ago Haha. Between 14 and 45 , flak jacket and 5 mag 20 7.76 stayed in shape. Although it should be noted that Glock is manufacturing in the US now, Sig Sauer is as well. Any gun between 9 mil and .45 caliber is fine if you can conceal it, and employ it quickly and with reasonable accuracy. Indeed, you and bystanders in the immediate area are much more endangered by rounds that do not penetrate sufficiently than by rounds that overpenetrate.. Wouldnt waste my money on it. Ask the Mafia. One of the techniques used by several mob hit men was to use a .22 caliber pistol placed in the soft spot behind and slightly belo At 10-20 yards I want a .45. there is no substitute for Cubic Inches. Cyst fluid rich in lipids and inflammatory factors is a characteristic pathological manifestation of ACP and may play a very important role in hypothalamic injury caused by tumors. A century? Most of the ballistic testing I have seen comparing the penetration of various bullets and calibers would suggest that generally, a .45ACP and 9mm are both quite comparable as far as penetration is concerned. There are many fine little Girls Guns in 380 cal. While each of them has no direct bearing on incapacitation, they must all be considered. I dont want a light fast bullet that will over penetrate and possibly injure or kill an unintended. WOUND BALLISTICS - Motion and Effects of Projectiles in the the article mentions that where a bullet hits the human body is also a major factor on whether it inflicts a mortal wound. Okay, I have to give them props on this part of the statement because this is 100% correct. Sorry for the lengthy comment just my humble opinion. This was not a good CC carry eather so for a while I did not carry CC. I leave distinguishing the difference for law enforcement and military.In the moment of truth youre either going to hit properly or not. More damage with one shot. I use a 1911 as thats what I learned on, prefer the way it feels in my hand. As someone just coming in your home or coming at you out of the blue. Hence poor shot placement, causing a miss or worse the poor animal suffering a slow painful unnecessary death. A 9 is a great backup. 1996 responded to a domestic violence call shots fired. Its too small. Bullet was military Ball. I carry a S&W 9SDVE which I find can hold a good tight group. Oh, and Sgt. Involved in a shooting with my partner. The 7.62 round is not as fast as the .223, the round fired by the AR-15 (Americas most popular semiautomatic rifle), but it, . About 5 yrs ago I read a document comparing the damage to a human body wearing, at the time, state of the art LE body armor. So anyone reading this, you should check this gun out. The energy delivered to the target increases geometrically along with increases in mass, and exponentially with increases in velocity. I also have one that many people will call garbage. I owned a 9mm years ago and liked the gun, though the grip was too large for me due to the double stack magazine. This is important because of permanent cavitation: The greater amount of tissue that is destroyed, the greater chance of incapacitation, all other factors being equal. Thats funny. Train! WebAnswer (1 of 16): It does vary, but most of the time a 5.56mm rifle cartridge will have much more destructive potential than a .45 caliber pistol load does. human body Pistols are primarily used for close combat. The .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds. In Sicily had m14 auto and bi pod. Its only a pistol. Ive come to a conclusion that many people lean towards the 9 mm including the military because its easier to control and thus are more accurate, especially for a teenager fresh out of high school. Having fired 45 ACP and 9mm at human targets the 9 took 3 sometimes 4 hits c.o.m. This is accomplished through simple physics; a larger bullet imparts more force into its target than a smaller one. Now they have announced they are moving back to the 9mm in the form of the new Gen5 Glock 17M. You're free to republish or share any of our articles (either in part or in full), which are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License. Police, f.b.i., train. But this doesnt mean that a 22 rimfire is the best caliber or even a good choice for head shots. The round should be able to penetrate the body sufficiently to damage internal organs, even from less-than-ideal angles. As stated before, this article isnt intended to solve the stopping power debate, but only to discuss the issues it involves. In stark contrast, the vast majority of incidents involving .40 S&W and .45 ACP resulted in gunshot victims being DRT; they dropped and expired right where they were initially shot, even with imperfect shot placement. Maybe .22 LR? 25 yard 1.52 off hand 5 rnd groups on the nose. Sadly, most government decisions like this are primarily based on cost effectiveness, not cartridge performance or effectiveness; thats the main reason I quit using military or LE decisions as a factor in my own carry decisions. Think the title of this article is misleading. He became an FBI agent and served in the FBI for 30 years, retiring in the position of supervisory special agent/chief division counsel. In each of the three most common law enforcement handgun calibers (9mm Luger, .40 S&W, .45 Auto), there are some projectiles that have a high likelihood of success for officers (i.e., all three are very effective). This would give them an edge regarding tissue displacement/destruction during a shooting incident where any advantage, however slight, would be welcome. What will each round acco. Stay safe everyone, JP, first of all, Im really sorry you had to go through that. first handgun i ever fired was glock27 .40SW she was snappy at first but 16 years later and after shooting lots of .45 and 9, i am back to .40SW for HD purposes. The role of the gun industry in Americas gun violence epidemic. WebActually, three different types of pressure change appear: (1) shock wave pressures or sharp, high pressure pulses, formed when the missile hits the body surface; (2) very high pressure regions immediately in front and to each side of the moving missile; (3) relatively slow, low pressure changes connected with the behavior of the large explosive pulverizing bones, tearing blood vessels and liquefying organs. She remembered one young man who was admitted to her emergency room with an abdominal wound from a hollow-point round. One or two out of every twenty or more perfect placement leaves me desirous of a heavy hitter. I have owned all of the above calibers plus.In S&W, Glock, Sig.CZ,Remington,Beretta.I have taken bob cats,coyotes Jack rabbits Badger with all. Also SOCOM has been using hollowpoint ammunition for years, but primarily against unsanctioned terrorist personnel. I think it is more the exception than the rule. Id use either! Q-do you think your mind will change about +P in a 45 cal? I preferred carrying them before things went bad for me. Category:Human body Request product info from top Ammunition companies. I carry a number of different calibers depending on what Im wearing that day and where I intend to go; but I no longer even own a 9mm. laugh at the forensic expert and 2.) Okay all handgun are garbage. Just some REAL world observation not keyboard commando stuff. Therefore, the 9mm is probably the correct choice. Scalise, a Republican from Louisiana whose condition has been upgraded to serious, suffered broken bones, ruptured blood vessels, and shredded internal organs. If these shootings have something in common, it is each and every one is different. Vital organs sit deep within the human body, so penetration and permanent cavity volume are important factors. If these shootings have something in common, it is each and every one is different. What causes more damage, .45cal pistol or 5.56 mm rifle? So how can we expect people to take a human life so readily? Head on over to the Concealed Carry Podcast for great audio content. Lee reloading gear. damage Do Not Sell My Personal Information, If you need further help setting your homepage, check your browsers Help menu, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness,, Lethal Force and the Objectively Reasonable Officer,, FBI Training Division Justifies 9mm Caliber Selection, supervisory and municipal liability in law enforcement. The pistol is not their primary weapon. With this in mind, we will now explore handgun wounding factors. But its definitely not easy to carry concealed (especially in hot weather) and Im big guy. He eventually was taken off life support 4 days later, open casket funeral. The FBI has made a pragmatic decision that the 147 grain 9mm bullet is the best bullet for its agents because it allows for more rounds in the handgun. When a handgun is bought for personal protection, whether in the home or on the street, its purpose is the application of deadly force to protect your own life, the lives of others, and to prevent serious physical harm. Remember, people dont have health bars. and love a SA trigger. The absolute best thing that anybody can do, find a pistol that suits you that you like, get a high capacity round, and train yourself in situational awareness so you dont have to worry about shooting somebody on accident. Riley, love your artical. 45 acp damage human body Episode 424 is the perfect companion to this post because we discuss caliber and it's relation to hit factor! This whole conversation for over 2+ years is hilarious. Frank K. Seems to me that when using the same style bullet in the 45 and 9mm the 45 would still beat the 9 in stopping power. These are the only two factors you can expect to remain constant in any situation. Make your best shot number one. Dr. Peter Rhee is a trauma surgeon who operated on victims of the 2011 shooting at a political event in Tucson, Arizona, in which six people were killed and 13 wounded in a hail of 9mm bullets. As might be expected, larger-diameter bullets produce more devastating wound cavities and have a greater likelihood of striking vital organs. D.R. A 50-60gr 9mm bullet that obtains 2000 fps. Glocks are cheap and reliable. Many do not discover the gun thats right for them as easily as you have (if they ever do)! If an operator like a .45 go for it. Sign up for new product alerts, company updates, and more! I still prefer the .45. But a high-muzzle weapon shatters that bone into hundreds of microscopic pieces, in a way that cannot be repaired. What do you Think of the S&W Shield? Wow now this argument of 9 mm verses 45 acp is stupid. It can also destroy your aim, and the strongest bullet on earth is useless if it doesnt hit the bad guy coming at you. Oh yeah, I long forgot where I read it. So, have you experienced shooting someone at close range with each caliber to determine the stopping power of each round? But in the Kaos of combat (especially at dark:30) your intended target isnt usually going to present itself and just stand there for your perfect shot placement. I have handgun hunted for over 25 yrs and enjoy it immensly, and also do a lot of reloading.IF a guy wants to carry a 45 or 9 or anything else and are comfortable and proficient with either, then why not? WebSearch: 45 Acp Damage Human Body. Everything from grip, shooting stance, limp wrist-ing and recoil spring pressure was examined. Give SOCOM GLocks which shoot 9mm (Glocks are great guns and I dont have a problem with the 9mm, great cartridge especially with all the advancements over the last 30 years) as I was saying problem solved. This post has been updated to include information released by the FBI regarding the weapon used in the shooting. Now lets get back to today in time and we do have very good defense ammo so most of the time Id agree that the 9mm is equal to any other round out there today for human sized targets and smaller as well. True enough, but the dead enemy will not lie there or sit-up and shoot or pull the pin on a grenade on you as the wounded enemy might. Now for long engagements that are seen more in military ops and where fire suppression matters most I prefer 9mm. Also we are talking pistols. Most people get creatine through seafood and red meat though at levels far below those found in synthetically made creatine supplements. The one thing Ive learned and seen over a lot of shooting is that a 9mm with FMJ bullets is mostly useless. The fifteen round magazine contributes to the spray and pray thinking while the 1911 makes one concentrate on placing the shot. Back then we all agreed the larger rounds had better stopping power. Especially when it carries nearly double the mass with the bullet? Theres not the penetration of a 9, because the mass of energy is transferred suddenly to the body in impact. As for accuracy, I hear a lot of my friends talking about the accuracy of their 45s over a distance compared to my 9 mm, but no one to date has outshot me on the range, and almost all of my friends have switched to a 9 millimeter in the past few years. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); 2023 Concealed Carry Inc. All Rights Reserved. The only argument I have ever heard that actually makes any sense is the most recent comment where former law enforcement States the possibility of collateral damage from over penetration.
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